在位蜜蜂CEO 12年,Mittani退位事件始末

本来想发贴吧的,不过涉及很多Reddit,脸书和外网论坛,怕发了两天贴就没了。愿意转发的请随意。

本贴采用大量截图和来自蜜蜂内部的第一手消息,消息基本都有来源可查,希望尽可能做到客观公正。

背景知识:
SA论坛:蜜蜂主力军团Goonwaffe的成员的老家。Goonwaffe的成员一般都是SA论坛的成员。
The Something aweful forum: home to GSW corp Goonwaffe. Goonwaffe members are usually members of the SA forum too.

起因 Prelude

7月7日


上图为蜜蜂Delta Squad的管理公开的内容。Delta Squad是蜜蜂内部一个以SA论坛成员为主的兴趣小组。来源为SA论坛原帖(EVE 2022: Drop corp if in Groomfleet, unsubscribe, and log off - The Something Awful Forums

7日当天,蜜蜂管理处理了一个在舰队喷人的玩家,把他踢出了联盟服务,我们将他称作成员K。成员K之后在论坛上发贴抨击蜜蜂,说蜜蜂成员在舰队欺负他并且希望他自X。蜜蜂管理否定了这一指控,称他只是在舰队见人就喷。当天,蜜蜂女玩家Mcwolf在论坛发了另一个贴,内附成员K性骚扰她的截图。

7日晚,玩家K被踢,看起来是个happy ending。

8日,蜜蜂管理Zx和Cryo决定向蜜蜂总监群反映问题,希望能够减少这类骚扰事件,见下图



Zx和Cryo联系了被骚扰的2个蜜蜂成员,Mcwolf和Daniel Onzo,写了一个希望处理联盟内部性骚扰事件的报告给蜜蜂总监群(报告内容见回帖附录1)。报告由Cryo提交。

9日,Mcwolf被踢出帝国并进了帝国黑名单(后面的截图证明这是Mittani所为)。参与的几名蜜蜂管理表示非常惊讶,并告诉蜜蜂总监群:“如果你摇一棵树,你将无法控制掉下来的是什么东西”,“你们这样做是在融化一个核反应堆”。

July 9th , The imperium kicked and blocked Mcwolf (screenshot below shows it’s done by Mittani). Which shocked those GSF mid rank leadership who reported the case.

爆发 Climax

10日,SA论坛成员FNLN(FirstName LastName)在论坛上爆出了Mittani在总监群的言论,截图如下:
Goons director FNLN posted chat logs of imperium directors, where the Mittani said “funny” things:


大致内容就是Mittani认为Mcwolf是个荡妇,专门勾引得到母爱不足的男人。性骚扰也是编的,Mcwolf就是Amber heard。(这里是英文社区的一个梗,Amber heard是一个以谎报家暴而出名的女演员)


FNLN并不是第一手处理Mcwolf问题的总监,而是在Mittani把Mcwolf踢掉,并且说了很多奇怪的话,事情开始闹大以后才开始介入事情经过。

同时蜜蜂论坛开始有成员不断发帖,为Mcwolf打抱不平,Mittani将数个总监,中层管理,和一些闹事成员全部踢出了联盟服务。

蜜蜂总监群相关内容见附录2(SA论坛原帖:EVE 2022: Drop corp if in Groomfleet, unsubscribe, and log off - The Something Awful Forums

7月11日,蜜蜂女玩家Aldani Tolaren,蜜蜂6年的老成员,同时也是蜜蜂的一个中层管理和蜜蜂前外交官(我那个时期的),在红迪发帖,表示自己在蜜蜂的21-22年间的线下活动3次受到性骚扰,女玩家应该退出蜜蜂。(原帖:https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/vvzgh3/gsf_leaders_sit_on_stalking_report_for_months_ban/

性骚扰的情节严重到有人把兄弟在她面前掏出来。

在和蜜蜂总监群投诉后并没有得到任何回应,在和蜜蜂总监Innominate当面反映后,被说是在“小题大做”

因为这件事情,Aldani在年初删除了自己的蜜蜂人物。

至此事件开始在蜜蜂内部大规模升级,但Mittani此时还能控场,并不停把发声者踢出服务。还和几个总监在蜜蜂的DC上说Aldani有精神病。

这时蜜蜂其他总监开始损控,将性骚扰的受害人Mcwolf拉回联盟。但Mittani将FNLN踢出联盟。

12日,Mittani去年底在加州被女性安全社区 Whisper network 报警的事情被人挖出,举报人称Mittani,会挤到女性身后并用兄弟摩擦别人后方。
12th, someone posted Facebook screenshots on whisper network where Mittani was reported for sexually harassing women.

截图如下:

13日,Xenuria接受采访,说自己不是炼铜,只是喜欢果体的小男孩。采访者Hezzy也同样是蜜蜂的SA论坛成员。
13th July. Imperium CSM of 3 years (2018-21) accepted an interview with Hezzy, admit himself posting Child Porn on a discord server.

同日,Xenuria过去发的很多东西被挖出,因为犯罪程度比较高不链接。在红迪你可以慢慢看:https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3cvmlq/half_the_shitposting_aside_who_is_xenuria_why_do/

这里说一下Xenuria的背景。Xenuria在12年的时候就因为炼铜相关问题被帝国拉黑(那时还叫CFC),然后Mittani把他拉出黑名单。Xenuria在蜜蜂连续3届当选CSM玩家议会代表,属于蜜蜂的招牌之一。

14日,蜜蜂军团KarmaFleet将Xenuria踢出并拉黑。
14th July. Xenuria kicked and blocked from Imperium
image

同日,SA论坛管理将Mittani永久封号,理由为性骚扰和包庇炼铜癖:
Mittani perma bannd from SA forum
image

而蜜蜂军团的招新贴,也被修改为“请大家上线,退出蜜蜂军团,然后下线”。

而在原本蜜蜂可以有组织控场的红迪,舆论是一边倒,还不断有蜜蜂成员出现表示震惊和愤怒。

因为Goonwaffe的成员尤其是管理都必须是SA论坛成员,至此Mittani已经失去继续管理Goonwaffe的合法性,成员开始串联退盟,转移资产,蜜蜂到了生死存亡的关头。

15日,事件持续发酵,各大联盟群成员乃至FRT都已经开始得到消息。蜜蜂的CSM和总监如Angry Mustache等,开始在论坛上损控。


Angry mustache在论坛上解释他发现Xenuria接受Hezzy的采访,承认自己还是炼铜以后,和其他总监以最快的速度把他踢出了联盟。

Angry mustache: 我对于我试图为他辩护感到非常羞愧。回想起来,如果我们早一些把他踢掉或者干脆不让他进来,很多人不会因为愤怒而退出联盟
calanthe_maulerant: 我不是想针对你来嘲讽然而卧槽该死见鬼上帝啊cxzvzdgv
Angry mustache: 我是活该,我只是试着让他不要接受采访,因为那时我还以为他只是个脑子不清楚的一般人要去和一堆混蛋趴体。我知道他应该会失控,他果然失控了而且让人知道他在开童车。我这几天一直在思考我对于别人的判断标准是不是须要调整。

名词解释:CP=Child Porn=儿童果照或视频

尾声 Aftermath

16日,Mittani宣布退位,12年蜜蜂CEO生涯终结。


上图声明的总结:

我的人民,我认为现在如此大量的诽谤已经超出了我个人可以处理的极限。我现实中的离婚问题,我最近死掉的狗,还有大量无耻的谎言和欺骗加在一起让我成为Goonswarm的一种负能量。

那些对我的指控都是没有依据的谎言,蜜蜂的成员不需要每天处理Mittani是坏蛋的大字报还有以此衍生的各种诽谤。唯一的解法就是我有序地退场。我已经把公司股票转移给Xttz,并移交Goonwaffe给TheAdj。

以CEO身份为各位服务12年,对我来说是一种无上的荣耀,我们一起建立了最伟大和最有趣的太空帝国,在互联网历史上最大的战争中击败了剩余的其他所有玩家。你们的成功,友谊,社区将会是我永远的回忆。

我把资产和权限移交给新的管理组,他们会稳定局面,请对他们耐心一些,因为会有很多新的系统和提升的变革。我们的体系非常复杂,请对他们温柔一些。

至于我,我会出去玩玩草坪抽抽大麻。

简而言之,Mittani退位但拒绝认错。

17日,INIT的CSM代表,也是Mittani在Meta Show的副手Brisc Rubal,受到网暴,被人往工作单位发投诉邮件。 17th INIT CSM Brisc Rubal, got harassed in his workplace:


红迪等论坛管理开始对事件锁帖降温处理。 Reddit admins start to lock threads to avoid further escalation.

Mittani事件至此告一段落。

短评

这个事件的爆发点在于9日Mittani把受害者踢出帝国并拉黑这一操作,并且完全无视其他中层蜜蜂管理的感情。理由似乎是他觉得既然这女的可以选择屏蔽骚扰者,就不应该投诉,所以这女的就是麻烦的来源。这个逻辑稍微有点难以理解。

Xenuria则是在一个极为敏感的时间干了非常愚蠢的事情,升级了他的炼铜行为并公之于众,成为压死Mittani这骆驼的一根电线杆(不是稻草),让我怀疑他是不是顶级间谍。

当然,大家可能也会很疑惑,为什么一般的蜜蜂成员会为了那么几个女成员打抱不平甚至威胁管理层退出游戏?为什么总监不联手把事情压下去还不断有核心成员反水爆料?个体正义真的就比整个组织还要重要吗?我也很疑惑,这大概是文化差异吧。

7 个赞

附录1,Cryo给蜜蜂总监群的有关性骚扰报告的原文

The Imperium has a problem.
If you had asked me a year ago about harassment in the imperium, I would have said it’s damn near nonexistent. However, in the last 8 months Delta Sqad alone has had 3 major incidents, none of them reaching a satisfactory conclusion. A sub-50-man Squad has had 3 major incidents in 8 months. I can’t imagine what happens to people that don’t have the full backing of the group they are with. I have included statements from each person involved in each event they were a part of, finishing off with my suggestions for structural changes.

Redacted the GLD incident
On April 15, 2022 while in a mainfleet stratop with redactedFC as FC, a GLD member by the name of redacted was chatting in fleet chat with others engaging as well. One point redacted said “He won’t eat my shit. He’s “dieting”… Fslur”. Myself and someone else made a comment in fleet chat regarding this to which he said “Sozz” and then “I’m from the 80’s… Like 88. It wasn’t a big deal calling friends fslur back then.” I told him to “stfu” to which he responded with “ok fslur”. I immediately said something to redactedFC who was the FC and I believe redactedFC kicked him from the fleet. redactedFC was aware and said he would handle making sure that GLD Directorate/CEO were aware. I also made people aware in Delta Sqad discord where several Directors are, including redacted director. I had never experienced anything like this before or the need to report something like this, so I trusted that redacted and redacted Director went the correct avenues which I still believe they did. From my understanding, redacted Director made the illum room aware of this situation and it was being handled. It is also my understanding that redactedFC was able to get in contact with the GLD CEO and make him aware as well. During this whole time, it was essentially out of their hands and handed over to the proper people in leadership. I never once heard from any of those people directly and had it not been for redacted DIrector, I would have had no idea if it was even being looked into at all. A simple “It’s being looked into” from Innominate would have sufficed at some point. Sunday rolls around and I’m made aware that potoboy was asked to apologize to his CEO and that would be the end of it. Absolutely no one who was making the “final decision” reached out to me to even let me know this was the decision. This was all brought to me second hand. I did not feel this was reasonable enough at all and felt like it was just a way to sweep the whole situation under the rug. It truly made me feel like my feelings of being called a fslur within my own Alliance were being invalidated/not that big of a deal.

I wanted to leave the alliance because I knew I could still hang out with the people who cared in the Delta Sqad discord but I didn’t feel like outside of that, anyone within leadership of making a decision was going to stand up for me. I did the next best thing I could think of and made a post on goonfleet in helldump on Sunday night just to shine light on the entire situation. A lot of people in the alliance read it including Merk and Mittens. They were more than aware at this point. From my perception, this seemed to light a fire of “Hey, what is this all about” within leadership. By Monday morning/afternoon, I saw that Mittens was speaking in elysium about the situation and at that point had given a “kick redacted from your corporation” to the GLD CEO. Once again, I was totally unaware of this until someone in Delta Sqad mentioned it was happening. Once again, no one ever reached out through any means to say “We are for sure taking care of this”.

In situations like this, communication with the person who was affected is absolute key, no matter the outcome. It at the very least tells them “We hear you, we’re looking into it, and we’ll make a decision.” But when people feel aren’t getting that, they have to fill in the blanks and just assume they’re not being heard. I really hope this can make a difference how we communicate with people when these situations arise. It truly is needed.

My final thought on all of this is what if some new alliance member was in that fleet who is struggling with being gay and coming out and their source of being themselves is going on a fleet with their alliance members and see someone use the word ‘fslur/fslur’ 3x and it taking someone creating a helldump post to get serious attention paid to the situation, otherwise it would have just been swept under the rug. Potentially their once source of gaining confidence with their online spaceship friends is erroded for fear of being found out. Goons and much of Eve have a notorious history with using slurs, so it’s going to give people pause within the LGBTQ community.

Redacted on harassment from redacted this issue is still unresolved. The text below was posted to a director on Jan 29th at merchii industrials request and they didn’t respond and wasn’t viewed till April 6th.

I met redacted (AKA redacted) through my Twitch channel in spring 2021 when she started hanging out in my live chat. We developed a rapport as she was also a new streamer and a regular presence in other Eve streamers’ channels. Once I became a member of Goonswarm, I started poking at others in the Twitch community to join as well. There was a lot of content from the war and I wanted my friends to experience the same welcoming environment and camaraderie that I was enjoying. redacted expressed interest and I vouched for her to join Karmafleet in June. redacted’s application to KF was rejected and the only context she gave me was that they felt another corporation would better suit her interests as a miner/industrialist, but she took it very personally. She continued to message me and used lovebombing tactics to gain my trust and further insert herself into my inner circle. When she again expressed a desire to join Goons, I told her that ASCEE is recruiting, as was Merch Industrial. She applied to MRCHI but, unbeknownst to me, obfuscated the fact that she ever applied to Karmafleet. From what I gather MRCHI never learned about her rejected application until I brought it up in the wake of this trash fire, and they accepted her in the beginning of July.

After moving to Delve, redacted expressed to me that she was having a good time getting assimilated into the community. Reviewing my correspondence with her, I have come to understand that her impetus for staying in Imperium was motivated by her attachment to me. She had said things such as i want you to get super popular, cause then some of that could rub off on me and talked about getting people to donate as much money to me as they did for Mind1. She joined the same SIGs as me, and would message me in Discord about SNS and Meta Show, but I never saw her go on any fleets or participate in any alliance related activity. redacted would ask me to go run abyssals or mine in hi-sec with her, but she would avoid hanging out with me while I was with other goons because she couldn’t monopolize my attention. In November, I was dealing with the breakup of a long term relationship and talking about it with redacted on Discord. She used this opportunity to say that she had had a crush on me for several months. I told her I am flattered but (as she knows) I’m not gay, and she walked it back, saying that she had a “no straight girls” policy anyway. My belief is that because I rejected redacted after months of her ingratiating herself to me while in Goons, she started huffing copium and taking it out on others by goonfucking and starting drama.

When the mining industry changes were announced, I saw redacted take opportunities to pick fights with other goons in my Discord comms. She came to me malding over what I perceived as benign arguments about like, ore compression and faction lasers. (I know pretty much nothing about mining, and part of the meta is complaining about CCP anyway, so I didn’t have a frame of reference for how disproportionate her reactions were at the time). I do know that when redacted gets in a fight, it is often precipitated by some outside event setting her off and she brings that aggression with her to the next situation. When confronted about her anger management issues and lack of impulse control, she leans on outside influences and evades responsibility for her own behavior. It is my belief that she escalated fights with other goons that she perceived as threats because they were personally closer to me, and used the drama over the industry changes as an excuse.

After she was kicked from MRCHI, I spent two hours on the phone with Redacted while she tried to convince me that she was the victim of passive aggressive accusations and lies. I did not know that during her time in GSF she was approached on several occasions about fleet participation, but it does not surprise me that she responded with aggression and antagonistic behavior. I recommended that she try investing more time in Blue Potion Gaming’s Discord server, which she had been part of for several months. BPG is a new Twitch stream team that focuses on destigmatizing mental illness, and they’ve recruited several members who identify as part of the LGBT community, including redacted. As a trans woman struggling with mental health issues, I felt this would be a better gateway for her to find like-minded gamers to hang out with, since things with Goons clearly were not working out.

Several days after she was kicked, there was a conversation in the BPG general chat about the loot pinata in R-A. Large Quafe Zero (LQZ) is a new Imperium member and he said he didn’t know anything about the event. I asked him if he had downloaded Jabber yet, and he said he had but wasn’t used to reading pings yet. redacted chimed in under her redacted username, saying that she mostly ignores pings, and posted a screenshot from Pidgin, saying “the best part about reading pings is parsing them out.” It was a ping for a harpy fleet, not very difficult to interpret, but maybe that just proves how much she ignores Jabber. I assumed it was an old screenshot and a pathetic attempt at flexing like she was still in Goons. I did not see it was dated 1/13, and she had been kicked on 1/9. The following weekend I saw redactedon grid in 1DQ, and knew it was the same one when I checked her bio and she had links for the redacted Twitch/OnlyFans. One of her last messages to me on Discord was “i probably should bug someone to join an imperium corp to give redacted corp ceo the “fuck you” middle finger” so this was hardly a surprise.

I told the BPG server owner Chicken that redacted’s post should be deleted if it hasn’t already. She thanked me for letting her know, and then asked if I had taken a screenshot. I sent her the one I took of the harpy ping, and she said that one must have been deleted by someone else because what she just deleted was a screenshot of redacteds overview with all the blues on grid during SNS, and redacted saying something about shooting supercaps with fireworks. I would consider that an innocuous post, any red cloaked up in 1DQ could easily see that, but with redacted track record of constant conflict I believe there is cause for concern. My overall impression is that redacted behavior has resulted in her getting the boot or ragequitting every alliance she’s tried to join including PAPI. She has a very hard time playing well with others, not that Goons are renowned for such things, but she would rather sow discord and start internal drama than chill with friends and get drunk in fleet once a month…not to mention being a manipulative creep.
Relevant screenshots are in the imgur link, if you need any other info just let me know.

https://imgur.com-----redacted

redacted re- redacted

redacted was a Twitch follower of mine since March 2022, who posted a lot in my channel and my Discord. He told me in direct messages that he struggled with mental illness and had come back to Eve after some time away from the game and joined GSF/became an FC for the social aspect. He also wanted to stream and I was happy to give him some pointers. So talking about Eve is where that should have stopped, obviously, but he ended up telling me that if I had an OnlyFans he would probably end up homeless. Here’s the thing: I am more than happy to direct someone to my Patreon for extra content, but rather than just go do the thing he started asking if he could negotiate essentially à la carte content for me to personally send to him because of his financial situation, I redirected him again to my Patreon so he could go ahead and sign up and stop bothering me about it.

The types of forever-alone/simp posts he would make in my server also started to raise some eyebrows and I was charitable enough to tell him “Look, post in my server with things related to my stream and that is fine but stop posting this other stuff especially from iFunny because neo-Nazis recruit off there,” and he acquiesced regarding iFunny posts. I only have so much time and energy I can spend dealing with mainfleet pubbies who want my attention, and it is very apparent to me now that the more I would ignore him the more extreme his personal posting started to get, like messages about his dad being in the hospital, then talking about getting kicked out of his house and having to stay with his grandma, going to family therapy, wanting to jump off a bridge, all things designed to get attention and pity because he needed me to be a therapist-girlfriend-mommy, not a spaceship friend.

Naturally stalkers of mine has it in for Azo Pathwalker, whom I often refer to as my gay Canadian boyfriend (see redacted campaign to get him booted from the alliance because she was jealous lmao). redacted claimed that redacted bullied him out of Delta Sqad. First of all we had no idea he’d ever been in there. Second of all, if you’re trying to run a character assassination campaign on redacted, calling him a cyberbully is the least realistic thing you could ever go with. My final straw was when he pinged me about forgetting to unsubscribe to my Patreon, and I guess wanted me to feel bad for his $5-tier sub going through by accident- I told him he was wasting my time and he doubled down on trying to be a Nice Guy ? for messaging me in the first place. He didn’t seem to understand anything beyond I Was Mad, so he started apologizing to me like he was a kicked puppy boyfriend. He goes back and joins Delta Sqad, which he knows I’m in, starts posting, irritates people and gets kicked for saying some very problematic things that made members uncomfortable. I spoke with friends in both Delta and Theta Squad about this guy who was very vocal about these squads being his social circles. He’s kick-banned from all of them. redacted had a very public meltdown about being “bullied” out of GSF and he was leaving-- and lied about people telling him to kill himself, when that didn’t gain traction he started calling goons facists and said that Deltas were Nazis. I posted some of his problematic messages to me in helldump. redacted started slinging insults at me, vowing revenge, and threatening self-harm until the thread got locked.

I wonder if redacted ragequit goons, or if they did in fact kick him. I have no idea, because no one said anything except “don’t post callouts in helldump.” Sue me for wanting to make sure this guy doesn’t ever come back, because when Innominate (allegedly) requested information regarding redacted and the MRCHI leadership’s request for a blacklist, literally nothing happened, she still keeps getting allowed back in by random corps. I still have to see these people in my community. As far as I’m concerned these people should be banned from every Imperium Twitch channel. They do not deserve to feel welcomed in these spaces, while I have to feel extremely uncomfortable with the fact that I cannot be in Rampage Inc or Mind1 chats because they are still there. Let me be clear: I am not going to put myself through the mental and emotional anguish that inevitably comes with rereading messages from this unhinged creep so that I can show anyone more screencaps. Last time I did that, under the impression that the situation was being actively investigated and taken seriously, NOTHING happened.

Proposition.
Most video game orgs handle harassment issues by people running it up to the guild leader then they judge it how they see fit; I would like to believe the imperium can be better run than a wow feeder guild. I am proposing a new department or expansion of minicom. A player advocacy org that in my mind would function like a union rep they are the aggrieved parties advocate with the directorate understanding how to move the leavers of power in the imperium to get their case seen investigated and resolved faster than a line member with no understanding of how these systems work.

Communication and structural improvements.

People messaging random directors then and feeling your complaints are disappearing into the either forgotten about. I am outright arguing that directors don’t have the bandwidth for this task, it requires investigations, talking to multiple parties and keeping the person who filed the complaint in the loop to their satisfaction. A director of finance or coordination simply doesn’t have the time to bring every case to a conclusion.

Strategic Anti Sex Pest Jira Tickets (credit to RedactedF for the name) - People should be able to file a complaint get a case worker and know that their complaint is getting looked at e.g. the ticket would say received - investigating - resolved. A system like this would give people an understanding that the wheels of bureaucracy are moving and they haven’t been forgotten about.

The person that feels they have been harassed needs an advocate that they can be in communication after filing the complaint to help walk them through the process from beginning to resolution to make them feel safe and the imperium is working for them.

Small amendment it would be ideal if people from different backgrounds review each case IG I am not going to see things the same way as a LGBT person, Women or POC so I may not fully understand the depths of the offense and harassment each case needs to be examined with as much deference to the aggrieved party as possible.

附录2,蜜蜂总监群聊天记录

(4:01:30 PM) [email protected]/: yo mittey alex dude do you know theres like a sexual harrassment problem happening in gsf because its sounding like there is and people aren’t doing anything about it and people are getting upset about it, understanably
(4:05:36 PM) The Mittani: there’s a couple folks making accusations which are being investigated and unfortunately some of the loudest recent accusers have eaten mental health bans which we will not be discussing
(4:06:35 PM) [email protected]: if there’s a couple folks making accusations, there’s more who are silent who are goin through poo poo too
(4:07:16 PM) The Mittani: i’m not gonna discuss specifics of ongoing investigations into either sexual harassment accusations or mental health issues
(4:07:53 PM) [email protected]/: like i dont really know specifics about anything im just hearing ‘xxxxx person is continually harassing me and rejoined another gsf corp after getting booted/got an alt’ kind of stuff frequently enough to where it seems like theres at least one person who is actually making poo poo really uncomfortable for chicks on the reg. and being protected
(4:08:05 PM) The Mittani: heh
(4:08:08 PM) The Mittani: yeah
(4:08:18 PM) [email protected]/: i’m not talking about anything that’s happened, i’m talkin about the general environment if it’s allowing for it yknow
(4:08:24 PM) The Mittani: nah
(4:08:39 PM) The Mittani: because it’s a couple of individuals making repeated accusations of wrongdoing, which i’m not going to be discussing
(4:53:43 PM) [email protected]/: i’m not trying to. i’m not upset with you at all by the way lemme clarify that incase i came off mad, i don’t know who actually made what call about stuff, and i’m not trippin over any individual, but the health of the community
like someone, somewhere IS actually doing some poo poo if multiple people are saying ‘yo xxxxxx won’t stop harassing me/sexually harassing me/stalking me, gets booted from one corp, joins another or on an alt etc’ enough to where people are getting upset enough to move a forum over it, that’s a weird response and if i were a chick i’d take it as a ‘ah so im not safe here’ signal tough
it doesn’t matter whether the accusations are true or not, or whether the person who made them is lying or overly sensitive, the response gives that feeling regardless. it feels callous and bad and is a community-killer for real, that puts a very bad taste in peoples mouths, and theres a shitton of people looking for a reason to quit rn. its a bad move. im purely talking about the helldump-forum getting moved, ‘don’t announce or expose the bad behavior of other community members’, here, because i don’t know any other response at all, and that feels like a coverup. the factuality of it doesn’t actually matter, the vibe alone is enough to make people get a bad taste in their mouth and just bag it. you’ve probably been dealing with this for hours/days - i haven’t, so that’s why i’ve got all this energy to go on about it it’s not to drive you crazy, it’s just something that spooks me. i’ve just seen people talking about it enough to where it started to concern me and then i’m just seeing the forum being moved and a bunch of posts disappear and nothing else. That’s where i’m getting the bad feeling from

i get if you’re pissed and tired rn and this isn’t necessarily written as an emergency “hurry quick quick” thing, im not trying to get on your rear end i promise, just trying to describe how i’m seeing it, but something’s gotta be done fairly soon or people will leave in droves. this community cannot afford to be callous to its members when the game is as lovely as it is right now lmao

folks don’t want to be the place that is cool with people creeping on women as long as they’re in a position of power and will erase you if you say anything about it, and this will make em feel like its that place whether it actually is or not, that’s the part where it needs some sort of response, so that it’s not a complete unknown
it doesn’t have to name names or go into detail but something to say ‘yeah we’re not just covering up creepy poo poo people do and ignoring it’ bc moving forum & deleting everything & saying “no you can’t address this at all”, that just feels like a ‘you shut the gently caress up’ move from my perspective

i haven’t talked to anyone else about this cuz i’m not trying to get people more upset, like, i haven’t done any rabblerousing - but this is gonna piss a lot of people off guaranteed if it’s just moved and there’s no followup. Helldump is the only forum that actually has people use it every day of the year, it shouldn’t be at the bottom of the forum listing. moving it over something like that is just sending a terrible message no matter how true it might be

i’m not saying who bc they’re not logged in right now and i don’t wanna get them into poo poo without their knowledge, but by the fact they’re not banned, , i don’t think it’s the same person as the ones you’re referring to - which tells me this is still an ongoing problem and nothing has been done about it as far as i am aware
mainly tryna let you know how im seeing people digest at the lowest-common-denominator level. i just dont wanna see stuff go to poo poo and fall apart bro
(4:55:06 PM) The Mittani: there are bad people out there who do bad things, but there are also amber heards in the world
(4:55:27 PM) The Mittani: i assume you’re talking about mcwolf and nikki
(4:55:36 PM) The Mittani: it’s being handled
(4:57:04 PM) [email protected]/: <3
(4:57:18 PM) The Mittani: be careful about trying to rescue wounded birds my friend
(5:01:30 PM) The Mittani: anyway it’s a hot mess and because of the nature of the accusations i cannot discuss them
(5:15:24 PM) The Mittani: we are very likely going to have to ban both of these folks, it’s not good
(5:15:32 PM) [email protected]/: i just didnt want incident fatigue to freeze yr moral pitot tubes and tip stuff under the horizon w/o anyone realizing, yknow? like im just being careful, i got faith in you to do stuff right, i just didn’t know who to consult about this sort of thing at all, i don’t think there’s an official pathway

i think some kind of director of ethics kind of role and/or place where people could voice those concerns safely and openly but at the same time without them being, or being seen as, the thing i’m more worried about here, ignored/unheard/swept under the rug (maybe a forum that allows posting of anonymous-but-authenticated messages + banning for abusing it?) would prolly be a good long-term solution to deter actual creeps, make this whole sort of thing not your personal problem to solve whenever it comes up,
and as a bonus it’d just be a good look in comparison to snigg and papi and whoever
(5:15:54 PM) The Mittani: when you have someone running around making a bunch of accusations and insisting those accusations are not being looked into by the powers that be
(5:16:03 PM) The Mittani: it’s kind of a loving problem
(5:16:47 PM) [email protected]/: i think you misread that i wasnt saying anything about whats happening rn
(5:16:53 PM) The Mittani: because how does one establish trust and credibility when, say, the person who has rallied a bunch of folks to them to crusade for them, happens to also be a bad actor
(5:16:55 PM) The Mittani: yeah i know
(5:18:02 PM) The Mittani: this has been going on for months and this bitch can’t find a block button and is sending us walls of goddamned text, and when the entire directorate goes over the complaint - loving PAGES of words - and we don’t have anything other then he said she said breakup bullshit
(5:18:07 PM) The Mittani: we have to paper the hell out of these things dude
(5:18:17 PM) The Mittani: mcwolf is bad news, niki raine is also bad news
(5:18:34 PM) The Mittani: but gosh why isn’t anyone doing anything for mcwolf???
(5:18:49 PM) The Mittani: well, we’ve been dealing with this poo poo for a while now and we’re gonna have to stop this whole shitshow
(5:19:34 PM) The Mittani: anyway that may have to be the solomonic resolution
(5:19:46 PM) The Mittani: both have hosed up real bad
(5:20:12 PM) The Mittani: meanwhile the longer it drags on, the worse it gets
(5:20:57 PM) [email protected]/: thats why i think having a semi-anonymous AAD-esque place where issues can be discussed you can point to it and go ‘see, here’s where we discussed this’ if someones doing that and then tell them to shut up after that if they have nothing new to add would help
(5:21:00 PM) The Mittani: anyway it’s been a fun whole loving day of sorting out sexual harassment complaints of dubious provenance and bullshit not-goonfleet discord drama from a chick who joined gsf in march 2021 and has 47 posts
(5:21:07 PM) The Mittani: sometimes there’s smoke because there’s a fire
(5:21:12 PM) The Mittani: sometimes it’s a fucker with a smoke machine
(5:21:26 PM) The Mittani: the dreaded hypersensitive plaintiff
(5:21:44 PM) The Mittani: i do think we need to expand the methods of people filing formal complaints
(5:22:02 PM) The Mittani: it’s too big for nom now
(5:22:19 PM) The Mittani: i have no time for hearsay and third party accusations and we’re not setting up a resolution system to enable those
(5:22:40 PM) [email protected]/: like something where you can anonymously contact the directorate privately or publicly, and people can only have their identity revealed if the message breaks the ‘dont gently caress around with this for jokes’ rules or a majority of directors vote to reveal it, so people can assume actual anonymity as long as they’re acting in good faith
(5:22:41 PM) The Mittani: but people need a better way to get complaints looked at in a timely fashion instead of hoping nom responds to their pm/dm; it’s an org scale thing
(5:28:34 PM) [email protected]/: yeah thats why im thinking either a dedicated job of just that kind of stuff for someone to expand it (how the gently caress does he get so much done jfc) [edit for thread: Apparently, he doesn’t!]or some kinda semi-anoymous version of functionally those little boxes yo ucan write a note and drop the note the slot, the post is optionally(poster decided) is visible to everyone and so is the response then it simply can’t get lost, but also allows for anonymity and privacy is avaiilable if it’s involving sensitive information or embarassing stuff etc
(5:32:27 PM) [email protected]/: like not a new group of people who handle the issues, it wouldn’t be a discsusion forum for everyone to post in, only a threadposter & director would be able to post in a given thread
so it’d be a different and more transparent system for them to be delivered through that allows for less drama all around, because it’s public enough to say ‘we discussed it here’ if someone’s saying you’re ignoring their claims/accusations
that’s the least manpower-intensive way of properly handling these kind of issues with this many people that i can think of - basically a slightly more HIPAA AAD
(5:58:07 PM) [email protected]/: also im sorry its been that much of a goddamn mess i had no clue at all and i can totally see where the frustration comes from. you gotta give people like $200 an hour for them to be able to put up with that poo poo on the regular, Goonfleet the EVE Online Corp aint a relationship counselor, lmao
like, shed been talking like it was just some malicious person and never mentioned being in a relationship or interacting intentionally so i thought it was just some rando weirdo harassing/stalking a girl bc she’s streaming and then another nutjob tryna weaponize suicide at her and poo poo and then it getting washed away and i see how its hard to find a good solution to that one in general

but man you are losin all of delta right now like all of it over how this is being handled, people are dropping roles right. now.
i don’t think that’s a good thing & i think people are getting really angry this needs a clear response or its gonna go bad
(5:59:39 PM) [email protected]/: like even tho its already bad, something that gets everyone on the same page would help a lot bc people are very mad rn. like anything, the silence is leaving a lot of room for anger
(6:19:56 PM) [email protected]/: man yall are loving up bad
(6:20:10 PM) [email protected]/: like idk who but whoever is doing it, they’re loving up and it’s not gonna be fixable
(6:41:34 PM) [email protected]/: seriously, loving terrible work here.

(5:57:24 PM) the_mittani:
i will ping it with the stratop!

(5:59:48 PM) gashh_roswen: quick question, why was someone who was harrassed kicked out of the alliance?
(6:00:12 PM) alterari_phoenix: lmao awesome
(6:00:28 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: lmao that’s great
(6:00:41 PM) penguinbacon: My Little Yiffing Ponies (dot) alt alliance?
(6:01:01 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: ooh, rip helldump
(6:01:28 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: gashh_roswen: this would be something to ask innom, maybe
(6:02:21 PM) aiden_erhmentraut: scroll down
(6:02:46 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: oh
(6:05:12 PM) visavis_qed: yo
(6:05:14 PM) visavis_qed: yo
(6:05:23 PM) visavis_qed: are you guys trying to kill this fuckin community
(6:05:36 PM) visavis_qed: like for real wtf
(6:05:56 PM) visavis_qed: who is making these headass decisions
(6:06:10 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: mittens is
(6:06:16 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: you may bring your crying to him
(6:06:21 PM) visavis_qed: well hes gotta delegate this poo poo to someone who can handle it more delicately
(6:06:25 PM) aiden_erhmentraut: moving a subforum is killing a community?
(6:06:41 PM) visavis_qed: nah but sexual abuse scandals do and that’s what this is now because it’s not being loving addressed
(6:06:51 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: visavis_qed: excuse me the gently caress
(6:07:17 PM) visavis_qed: sexual harassment not abuse*
(6:07:24 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: again: the gently caress
(6:07:31 PM) visavis_qed: i don’t really know details
(6:07:33 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: also take that poo poo to innom
(6:07:36 PM) visavis_qed: uhhh
(6:07:42 PM) alterari_phoenix: If you dont know details then why are you opening your mouth?
(6:07:44 PM) koahi: yeah noone of us know anything about it here
(6:07:44 PM) visavis_qed: innom is the one who kicked the person who took the details to innom and was ignored for 6 months
(6:07:54 PM) visavis_qed: i know the details about how it’s a fuckin mess now
(6:07:59 PM) visavis_qed: i wasn’t involved until literally just now
(6:08:10 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: you sure are upset about something nobody here has any goddamn clue about
(6:08:15 PM) theadj: you should stay out of it
(6:08:25 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: or power to affect tbh
(6:08:25 PM) visavis_qed: that’s the thing that’s gonnna kill this community man
(6:08:32 PM) visavis_qed: everyoens gonna stay out of it lol
(6:08:36 PM) alterari_phoenix: wait im trying to figure out who involved you visavis_qed because i dont think anyone asked for your opinion
(6:08:51 PM) visavis_qed:
i don’t think i need permission to tell you that you’re loving up when you are loving up

(6:08:57 PM) madmaan: :coffee:
(6:08:59 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: :popcorn:
(6:08:59 PM) visavis_qed:
when like 100 people leave the corp en masse, you made a bad move!

(6:09:04 PM) nitchiu: Well… this will end well
(6:09:07 PM) azo_pathwalker: alterari_phoenix: he’s kramering a bit but I don’t think he’s out of line, but I think we should be talking to people in DMs first though
(6:09:18 PM) visavis_qed: i’ve been trying to talk to people in DMs and this is loving melting down
(6:09:25 PM) visavis_qed: and so i’m calling the whole issue out because this is loving dumb
(6:09:32 PM) visavis_qed: it’s childish and dumb and it can be handled better than this
(6:09:36 PM) mattais_valdyr: i had to google what the hell krammering meant
(6:09:38 PM) visavis_qed: this organization is like fifteen years old
(6:09:50 PM) aiden_erhmentraut: I just logged in so this is all new to me. Seeing a subforum move is Not A Big Deal dot Tee Em
(6:10:05 PM) visavis_qed: like im fuckin not even talking about the issue i’m talking about how it is being handled: poorly
(6:10:27 PM) visavis_qed: and i’m drawing attention to it because that’s exactly what it needs to not continue being handled that way
(6:10:45 PM) visavis_qed:
like this is dumb stop acting like 2007 goonfleet y’all

(6:10:51 PM) visavis_qed:
nobody liked 2007 goonfleet

(6:11:00 PM) aiden_erhmentraut: what are you evening raving about
(6:11:04 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: my dude have you considered that maybe the adults are handling it and that your kramering in here to shout about it is creating more of a problem than it solves?
(6:11:14 PM) theadj: ^
(6:11:29 PM) nyrenth: most people here dont even know what you’re talking about so chill
(6:11:29 PM) nitchiu: I’m assuming alchohol is involved
(6:11:54 PM) visavis_qed: they’re clearly not handling it
(6:11:57 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: maybe, like, the directorate is aware that things were not handled well and are working to unfuck poo poo
(6:11:57 PM) visavis_qed: because if they were
(6:12:02 PM) visavis_qed: i wouldn’t have to be like ‘what the gently caress’
(6:12:09 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: you could
(6:12:10 PM) visavis_qed: because i’m looking at other channels of people being EXTREMELY UPSET
(6:12:11 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: perhaps
(6:12:14 PM) azo_pathwalker: Siobhan MacLeary: trust in me
(6:12:17 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: chill the gently caress out
(6:12:18 PM) visavis_qed: and that makes me upset because i really like this community
(6:12:21 PM) theadj: please drop it
(6:12:25 PM) shylari_avada: it’s like 1 channel tbh
(6:12:25 PM) visavis_qed: and i don’t want it to loving poison itself over bullshit
(6:12:44 PM) shylari_avada: either way you’ll be able to manipulate PLEX prices in Perimeter
(6:12:48 PM) khali_zoora: visavis your rant reminds me alot of a post on facebook, very little substance, we have no clue who or what your ranting about and tbh its probably better if we dont know
(6:12:48 PM) visavis_qed: it’s more than one like you can’t handle these kind of things with this kind of tact you simply can’t
(6:12:59 PM) visavis_qed: i loving started goonfleet lmao
(6:13:08 PM) azo_pathwalker: that is true
(6:13:11 PM) visavis_qed: like check the corp bio that’s a quote of me
(6:13:18 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: k
(6:13:53 PM) john_hartley: yall mother fuckers need jesus
(6:13:54 PM) visavis_qed: so if i call an alarm of concern for this community that i helped create, it’s probably for a good reason, even if you don’t want to deal with it
(6:14:17 PM) mattais_valdyr: John I thought all you needed was cows
(6:14:20 PM) azo_pathwalker: take a breath fnln, but also this isn’t something that can just go away
(6:14:45 PM) visavis_qed: yeah i’m not trying to start a riot here i’m just like frustrated at how this is being handled because it shouldn’t be making ths many people upset and decide to leave at once
(6:14:57 PM) shylari_avada: have people left?
(6:15:04 PM) visavis_qed: yes.
(6:15:12 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: all i am saying is screaming about a thing in a channel where most people have no context of knowledge of what the gently caress is going on is a bad plan
(6:15:31 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: “someone did a harass and it was handled poorly” ok but what does this accomplish my dude?
(6:15:37 PM) visavis_qed: well if there was a better place to do it i would
(6:15:40 PM) mattais_valdyr: I am one of the 700+ in this channel that have no idea what you are talking about
(6:15:46 PM) mattais_valdyr: :-X
(6:15:49 PM) azo_pathwalker: agreed viv
(6:15:54 PM) shylari_avada: streamer gets stalked online.
streamer calls attention to stalking.
it was read, but nothing happened.
call out thread.
streamer and stalker both get banned.
(6:15:56 PM) visavis_qed: like this needs to be handled professionally when you have this many people in an organization
(6:16:04 PM) mattais_valdyr: yikes
(6:16:07 PM) visavis_qed: yeah
(6:16:11 PM) shylari_avada: you’re caught up.
(6:16:14 PM) visavis_qed:
that’s gonna make a lot of people leave if it’s not addressed

(6:16:14 PM) azo_pathwalker: ty shylari_avada
(6:16:18 PM) cafu:
GUYS CHILL, this has already all been resolved: https://goonfleet.com/index.php/topic/313240-hellojpg/

(6:16:26 PM) visavis_qed: thank you sweet goatman
(6:16:31 PM) azo_pathwalker: hello old friend
(6:16:39 PM) john_hartley: isnt that how we deal with most drama
(6:16:40 PM) mattais_valdyr: its like an adult rickrole
(6:16:43 PM) john_hartley: just kick both of them
(6:16:44 PM) visavis_qed: like i’m not calling out any person here but this situation needs to be handled right or its gonna gently caress stuff up bad
(6:16:47 PM) shylari_avada: yes
(6:16:47 PM) john_hartley: then its not a problem
(6:16:48 PM) john_hartley: lol
(6:16:54 PM) visavis_qed: you don’t kick people for being harassed and reporting harassment
(6:16:55 PM) nitchiu: That’s pretty much standard MO
(6:17:00 PM) john_hartley: sure you dod
(6:17:02 PM) john_hartley: do*
(6:17:03 PM) visavis_qed: that’s how you look like a slimy shitshow to avoid by 500 miles
(6:17:03 PM) shylari_avada: drama happens, airlocks get loaded, button is pushed.
(6:17:07 PM) john_hartley: look it just happend
(6:17:07 PM) azo_pathwalker: john_hartley: that’s for krab poo poo, kicking a victim of sexual harassment is not a W
(6:17:09 PM) john_hartley: :laffo:
(6:17:12 PM) visavis_qed: and have a sub 100 online members at all time vibe
(6:17:13 PM) donoae: cafu with the save, thank jesus
(6:17:17 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: if it was handled poorly then i don’t doubt the directorate is already aware of that and working on unfucking it
(6:17:19 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: just
(6:17:22 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: take a breath
(6:17:23 PM) oshi7: yeah can we not emulate canadian military harassment response
(6:17:30 PM) john_hartley: how do you get sexual harrased on the internet
(6:17:38 PM) mattais_valdyr: we have gone through enough top brass in Canada to plate a building
(6:17:42 PM) madmaan: that is loving cringe john
(6:17:47 PM) madmaan: just … no
(6:17:48 PM) theadj: spewing bullshit when you’re a 3rd party to something isn’t really helpful since you don’t have all (or any) of the facts
(6:17:51 PM) john_hartley: you know about the block function ?
(6:17:53 PM) theadj: so we’re going to change the subject
(6:17:55 PM) visavis_qed: it seemed like it was being handled properly and then it was just like loving JDAMed
(6:17:56 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: john_hartley: be a woman on the internet, that’s how
(6:18:03 PM) hivsd: visavis_qed: hi
(6:18:04 PM) danielc_onzo: what a poo poo take
(6:18:10 PM) nitchiu: So did anyone watch the NHL draft?
(6:18:13 PM) hivsd: i figured out how to reset my esa password
(6:18:16 PM) john_hartley: sure 1 time then you mute/block them
(6:18:17 PM) john_hartley: vOv
(6:18:17 PM) visavis_qed: here’s something that’s not bullshit: a lot of very valuable people will leave and never return for this kind of thing
(6:18:18 PM) theadj: hey, I did not stutter
(6:18:20 PM) visavis_qed: i’m not talking about myself
(6:18:20 PM) theadj: S T O P
(6:18:23 PM) azo_pathwalker: holy poo poo
(6:18:24 PM) theadj: right loving now
(6:18:26 PM) mattais_valdyr: i watched the cocky kid get picked 4th and be sad
(6:18:30 PM) mattais_valdyr: in the draft lol
(6:18:40 PM) nitchiu: That was pure gold
(6:18:43 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: i’m gay and very tired, i walked over a mile today while hitting other nerds with foam sword
(6:18:52 PM) mattais_valdyr: i watched montreal fans be total dicks to their pick
(6:18:52 PM) koahi: how many kills
(6:18:56 PM) mattais_valdyr: and him handle it really classy
(6:18:59 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: um…i didn’t count
(6:19:04 PM) azo_pathwalker: Siobhan MacLeary: I am also tired
(6:19:04 PM) nitchiu: montreal fans are the worst
(6:19:04 PM) Siobhan MacLeary: quite a few
(6:19:05 PM) koahi: that many!
(6:19:12 PM) aiden_erhmentraut: serial killer alert
(6:19:13 PM) visavis_qed: where can this be handled then because like whoever is doing it is not doing it right and i can’t find a place that this can be addressed - i’m not talking about the poo poo other people were complaining about, i’m talking about how this whole thing has been handled, where can I talk to someone about that?
(6:19:13 PM) shylari_avada: hi koahi

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感谢分享

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感谢diao哥的整理

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感谢楼主分享,好人一生平安 :handshake: :handshake: :handshake:

屌爷YYDS
来个机翻版本也行啊
这太长了 看不下去 :upside_down_face:

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屌屌,我的超人!

吊哥太牛逼了,666

好文!

非常好文章,感谢分享,爱来自瓷器 :+1: :+1: :+1:

火钳刘明

“当然,大家可能也会很疑惑,为什么一般的蜜蜂成员会为了那么几个女成员打抱不平甚至威胁管理层退出游戏?为什么总监不联手把事情压下去还不断有核心成员反水爆料?个体正义真的就比整个组织还要重要吗?我也很疑惑,这大概是文化差异吧。”我靠你这前面摆事实最后夹私货真的神了啊,个体正义当然比集体重要,公平正义是每个集体的基石,没有个人正义哪来的集体正义,每个有良知的,有道德的人都会懂得这个道理:一个连个人正义都不愿维护的集体,他的成员是不可能对它有归属感的,更不用谈忠诚了。最后一个“文化差异”更是逆天!不是想喷你,但有没有可能世间人人都追求公平正义,只是你自己的道德水平有限呢?

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你说的有道理,但在心里追求公平正义,和用行动追求公平正义并为之付出代价之间,是有很大去别的呢。还有很多我们耳熟能详的道德成语:
“舍小家为大家”
“没有国就没有家”
“皮之不存毛将焉附”
”覆巢之下安有完卵“
“生命才是最大的人权”

这已经是很复杂的文化意识形态的争论,又哪里是一句人人都追求公平正义可以概括的呢?

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不要代表别人了,你怎么想是你的事。另外麻烦查查什么叫做“成语”,我都不知道你说的几句话和你上文写的有什么联系。

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蜜蜂的成员愿意用自己的实际行动来维护公平正义,如果事情发生在frt上,难道我们的成员就做不到?难道我们的总监就会联手封锁消息?

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不一定是做得到做不到的问题,而是会有很多人质疑是不是应该这样做。就算是蜜蜂,也有很多成员不管炼铜还是性骚扰的事情有多少人说,都坚定地站在Mittani一方,给控诉者扣精神病,间谍,小题大做的帽子,甚至Brisc也点赞了一个类似的评论。这争端就回到我上面的一串成语,或者说俗话上:因为这一部分蜜蜂他们认为维护这两个女士的正义会影响到整个蜜蜂,事实上确实是产生了非常大的负面影响,那么舍弃小家顾全大家蜜蜂才是应该做的选择。实际上,蜜蜂总监群内部在这事情上也是分裂明显,至少一半的总监是无条件顶Mittani,不然也不会逼得FNLN爆料而不是内部解决,不是吗?

我们的道德不存在这样的滑坡,我们的底线清晰而明确,像这种明显破坏公序良俗的事只有极少数人可能会因为自己的利益而反对。


顾全大局,弃卒保车。增强全局意识,坚持以大局为重,正确处理好国家、集体和个人的利益关系,个人利益要服从国家利益、集体利益,眼前利益要服从长远利益,局部利益要服从整体利益。

这些话里面并没有提到底线究竟是什么,执行起来自然可以因人而异